Tuesday, March 22, 2005

We've Been Here Before

Last post for awhile on Schiavo. I am growing tired of it. The courts, the law, the doctors, and public opinion are all very much looking like they are for finally allowing this poor woman to die. It's time for religious conservatives to stop the posturing. I know you're true believers, and that's fine, but you don't make the laws.

Here's a snippet. Sound familiar?
"She is oblivious to her surroundings and will remain so. Her body twitches only reflexively, without consciousness.. The areas of her brain that once thought, felt, and experienced sensations have degenerated badly and are continuing to do so. The cavities remaining are filling with cerebrospinal fluid. The "'cerebral cortical atrophy is irreversible, permanent, progressive and ongoing.'" "[She] will never interact meaningfully with her environment again. She will remain in a persistent vegetative state until her death." Because she cannot swallow, her nutrition and hydration are delivered through a tube surgically implanted in her stomach."

That was not about Terri Schiavo. It was about Nancy Cruzan, who was in an identical persistent vegetative state, and was written by Supreme Court Justice Brennan in 1990.

Here's another snippet, also about the Cruzan case.
"While I agree with the Court's analysis today, and therefore join in its opinion, I would have preferred that we announce, clearly and promptly, that the federal courts have no business in this field; that American law has always accorded the State the power to prevent, by force if necessary, suicide -- including suicide by refusing to take appropriate measures necessary to preserve one's life; that the point at which life becomes "worthless," and the point at which the means necessary to preserve it become "extraordinary" or "inappropriate," are neither set forth in the Constitution nor known to the nine Justices of this Court any better than they are known to nine people picked at random from the Kansas City telephone directory; and hence, that even when it is demonstrated by clear and convincing evidence that a patient no longer wishes certain measures to be taken to preserve his or her life, it is up to the citizens of Missouri to decide, through their elected representatives, whether that wish will be honored. It is quite impossible (because the Constitution says nothing about the matter) that those citizens will decide upon a line less lawful than the one we would choose; and it is unlikely (because we know no more about "life and death" than they do) that they will decide upon a line less reasonable.... "

The author? Justice Antonin Scalia.

The first federal judge already denied the request to replace the feeding tube. This is all but over. All this indignation about her being starved is projection of cognitively functioning people onto her. Time that is days to us is nothing to her. According to most doctors that have seen her, she is feeling no pain. Let her die in peace.


Doc NOS said...


Great job. Not only smart, but also informative. I'm going to link you.

Thank you,

Doc nos.

Erik Grow said...

Thank you Doc! Much appreciated. I will check out your blog as well.

dave bones said...

Wicked! I can see why I bump into you on a Republican blog.. as it says in your intoduction.

" I'll debate anyone on anything, but I try to always do it withone eye on soulutions"

more power tp bloggers

Two Dogs said...

As usual, ignoring FACTS make things a whole lot easier for people. Terri is NOT in a persistent vegetative state. Could it possibly be that Justice Scalia thinks differently about two completely different cases? Man, I surely hope so.

For the completely uninformed and clueless, here's links. Trust me, there are tons of other links as well, so maybe you don't have to let an innocent woman die.




Man, show some type of curiosity about the real situation.

Doc NOS said...

The problem with this world is that stupid people are so certain while smart people are not. That was Russle. Well, here we have a case where you've clearly got your facts wrong, dog.

Her diagnosis is PVS. You can fight this, but it is the case. It is a fact. Every independant neurologist found that to be the case.

But keep trying to fight the facts of the matter. I suggest you next try to assail the so called 'fact' of gravity.

Two Dogs said...

Sorry, Doc Nos, not the case according to the court records. Five independent doctors, three said PVS, two did not. The whole point is, do you want someone that wants you DEAD making decisions for you?

Oh, and quit reading mediamatters, they seem to get proven wrong on damn near everything that they post. Using their stuff makes everyone who does it, look stupid.

Kinda like getting your information from my opinion blog.

Two Dogs said...

I want this to be my final note. According to everything that I have read on this in the last three years point to the conclusion that not only does she feel pain, she clutches her hands in pain and can even say "pay" and point to her stomach.

Okay, maybe she is feeling no pain while she slowly starves to death.

Erik Grow said...

I'm burned out on the whole issue guys. The right wing says the evidence and the people are lying. The sky is orange, up is down, roses have multi-colored polka-dots. Are they wrong? Who knows. It seems to me the reasonable doubt test has been exceeded. I've posted a dozen comments on other blogs on the issue. I'm done. The only one that can overturn it as of last night's ruling is the Supreme Court, and I don't see it happening. May she finally rest in peace.

Anonymous said...

Two Dogs - well, perhaps someday if you find yourself in an equally pitiful and hopeless vegestative state, those closest to you will decide to keep you alive to writhe in agony or wither away in solitude. Did you know that while the Governor of Texas, our jackass President actually signed a law that gave hospitals the ability to take patients off of life support in cases where their insurance could not pay for their care? This is hypocricy at its best.


Knott said...

Whatever this woman's actual state is, the fact is that life is short, and nobody can say if it beats the alternative. I would advise everyone who has taken this case to heart to talk to their loved ones (and anyone else who will listen, like their primary care physician) about exactly what their wishes are for a situation like this one.

Two Dogs said...

Thanks Daninmal, for being so misinformed on the issue. The Texas legislation information is completely irrelevent in this case, aside from the point that the stories about the legislation is being so uttering misrepresented. A good idea would be read the legislation for yourself.

I'm with Erik, this topic has been driven into the ground with bullshit. Most people have not even taken the time to inform themselves on this issue and continue to spew drivel and misinformation.

Thanks Erik, even though you and I disagree, it seems that you have actually read some articles that are contrary to your opinion, most folks haven't.